“Japanese baseball is not an American minor league”
Last week, speaking to Sponichi, NPB commissioner Ryozo Kato made a few interesting comments.
On players like Yu Darvish and Hisashi Iwakuma moving on to MLB…
“It’s a natural thing for talented players.”
「æ‰èƒ½ã‚ã‚‹é¸æ‰‹ãªã‚‰è‡ªç„¶ãªã“ã¨ã€
“It’s important that Japanese baseball has some appeal, so we can develop new talent.”
「新ãŸãªæ‰èƒ½ã®é–‹æ‹“ã®ãŸã‚ã«ã¯æ—¥æœ¬ã®é‡ŽçƒãŒé…力的ã§ã‚ã‚‹ã“ã¨ãŒå¤§äº‹ã€
I find this to be a sensible response to the situation. Kato seems to recognize that top players are going to want to test themselves against MLB competition much less grudgingly than some of the NPB old guard. I’ve long desired that NPB places more of an emphasis on developing young players, and it’s started to happen over the last few years.
On the potential of an international MLB draft…
“Japanese baseball is not an American minor league. We have to be tough about things to be tough about.”
「日本ã®é‡Žçƒã¯ç±³å›½ã®ãƒžã‚¤ãƒŠãƒ¼ã˜ã‚ƒãªã„。çªã£å¼µã‚‹ã¨ã“ã‚ã¯çªã£å¼µã‚‰ãªã„ã¨ã€
I’m right with Kato on this one too. MLB may be superior in many ways, but NPB’s objective is not to develop talent for other leagues. NPB teams want to win games and cultivate fan bases just like any other competitive sports league.
More relevant to the international draft context of this quote, veteran NPB players have a well-established tradition of being recognized as veterans in MLB negotiations (notably free agency) and there’s no reason to change that.
10/01/2012 at 9:49 am Permalink
Given some evidence that NPB has been looking more toward developing ‘Asian’ talent and competing with its geographical neighbors than the West, Kato’s comments have a whole new value. It’s interesting to note the tone of his voice–as much as can be made from writing–as enthusiastic. Increasingly, the world is looking at international players being treated by the MLB as a cheap labor commodity–Iwakuma’s recent incentive-driven contract being an example. It seems more evident that NPB wants to resist any push toward formal ties with America, as they have their own product to develop and market at home. Thanks for the translation!
10/01/2012 at 12:06 pm Permalink
NPB hasnt changed in Years….dont know if they really mean baseball business or just an advertisement outlet using ball players for the image of their parent company….
no visible expansion of income and lack of co-operation by each club. more importantly no leadership at the height of the commissioner’s office. Kato can say whatever he wants but the reality is NPB is not improving its game for the fans as well as improving the quality of the game.
recently i have seen a NPB players on TV doing some comical stuff with comedians….it only downgrades their status as pro athletes….i think NPBPA and NPB should educate their players to be more mature in deciding what to do or not to do
10/01/2012 at 2:13 pm Permalink
I don’t entirely agree. You’re probably right about the revenue, but I think Kato has done some things to at least attempt to take the game forward… the new ball, having playoffs in both leagues, interleague play (I think that was before Kato though).
As for the players taking part in “Spofes” (Sports Festival), I can’t see what the problem with that is. Sports are supposed to be fun. Also Major League players have participated in similar shows in Japan (a little less goofy and more competitive, but still).
10/01/2012 at 8:56 pm Permalink
NPB has the relationship to MLB that minor league teams had before about 1925, when major league teams, led by the Cardinals, began developing farm systems. Before that, minor league teams played to win their respective leagues, looked to find and develop their own talent, and routinely made trades to major league teams, not just as revenue enhancement but to improve the team they were fielding at the moment.
At the same time, baseball is and has always been a business, so if a team with smaller revenue streams has a player that a team with a bigger revenue stream wants, it can make sense for the small market team to sell the player for big money. If I recall correctly, the Seibu Lions used a lot of their Matsuzaka posting windfall to renovate and upgrade their ballpark. Obviously, unloading Matsuzaka was done not simply to make a quick buck, but to make the Lions more competitive in NPB over the long term.
On an unrelated note, mlbtraderumors.com reports that the Phillies just released 4-A player John Bowker so he could “pursue opportunities in Japan.” What is the scuttlebutt on who’s looking to sign him? You reported last June 12th that Lotte was interested in bringing Bowker over mid-season. Are they the team most likely to give Bowker his NPB opportunity?
10/01/2012 at 9:30 pm Permalink
On an unrelated note, mlbtraderumors.com reports that the Phillies just released 4-A player John Bowker so he could “pursue opportunities in Japan.†What is the scuttlebutt on who’s looking to sign him? You reported last June 12th that Lotte was interested in bringing Bowker over mid-season. Are they the team most likely to give Bowker his NPB opportunity?
Yomiuri has been in on Bowker, so I assume he’s going there. I’m kind of lukewarm on that move; I thought Hermida would be better but he wasn’t interested.
10/01/2012 at 9:30 pm Permalink
What’s interesting is that the MLB-NPB relations are like NPB-KBO/CPBL relations due to their relative financial strengths. So what MLB is doing to NPB, NPB does to KBO/CPBL. Haven’t seen many people come to terms with that in Japan.
10/01/2012 at 10:32 pm Permalink
Here’s my summarized thought on this situation, regarding talent flow between MLB and NPB… In a free economy, intransparency will hamper growth. The posting system is a part of such disservice.
I’ll like to see a uniformed FA system. Let’s say 8 years for BOTH drafted either from high school and college-shakaijin players (to protect the clubs and owners’ investment), so is it for the ones desiring MLB (to protect the rights of players to negotiate).
Eight years, simple math. But MLB must conform to NPB rules by introducing the Rule5 into this free agency as well.
MLB may choose to compensate the parent NPB club by,
A. Monetary compensation of 150% salary from the average of the player’s past 2 years @NPB, if signed.
B. Parent club may choose any minor league player affiliated to the MLB who signed the NPB-player, not protected by the 40-man roster.
The system will work if all player negotiation must be completed by the end of the Rule 5 Draft. If not, player must be released by parent club and passed waiver from all NPB clubs who claimed FIRST before becoming the alternative FA to talk to MLB clubs.
I think this kind of system will help both sides of the Pacific “Straight.”
Baseball tried to knock down Curt Flood and Nomo Hideo. How did that go? I want to see.
10/01/2012 at 10:33 pm Permalink
*Baseball tried to knock down Curt Flood and Nomo Hideo. How did that go? I don’t want to see those coming back and biting again. It hurts baseball.
10/01/2012 at 10:34 pm Permalink
Oh, and MLB might want to move back Rule5 to late December for NPB players to have more negotiation time.
11/01/2012 at 12:10 am Permalink
“B. Parent club may choose any minor league player affiliated to the MLB who signed the NPB-player, not protected by the 40-man roster.”
You can’t force a player to play in Japan.
But yes, some sort of compensation needs to be set up between various leagues that sign each other’s free agents.
Or just go for the all out free market soccer style.
American sports leagues are a lot more socialistic than European ones where the free market rules, interestingly enough.
11/01/2012 at 2:09 am Permalink
“NPB teams want to win games and cultivate fan bases just like any other competitive sports league.”
Really? I’m not 100% sure about that…
NPB teams are owned and named after companies and therefore more or less some kind of PR branch of those companies. Which has in my opinion several effects:
*) Chunichi getting rid of Ochiai because he’s seen as too expensive is in my opinion a good example of a “team mustn’t be too expensive, should cost just as much as needed to stay competitive”-attitude. That’s why you also don’t have a deep farm system like MLB organizations have…
*) As a non (or just barely) Japanese speaking NPB fan outside Japan I constantly get the feeling that those guys (NPB and the teams) don’t want to sell their product to me.
The NPB site is awful (at least compared to its MLB counterpart) and the English version is even worse but at least there is one. Most teams have one and for getting team merchandise from outside Japan one has to make use of some third party.
So, as long as teams are more interested in selling their mother company’s products than the product they put on the baseball field – at least that’s my impression – NPB is going nowhere. Which is a pity because the NPB has great potential in my opinion. For someone grown up with European soccer it’s definitely more fun to watch than the MLB with its anemic crowds…
11/01/2012 at 7:24 am Permalink
While there was a time period when owning a Japanese baseball team was only seen as a branch of a corporation’s marketing arm, I don’t think that that is the case any longer. Those in charge of their respective teams have been working very hard to make ends meet. They want to be profitable. The age endless marketing funds is long over.
And while there may be a serious problem with the Central Leagues cooperating, the Pacific League has been making huge strides at coming together to cooperate in many areas. Ideal? No. But Son-san (SoftBank’s owner) even recognized that any attempt to create a joint NPB – KBO – CPBL league could only be done with the Pacific League teams joining in from Japan. In the wake of last March’s disaster, the Pacific League quickly came together and postponed play for a month in solidarity with the two teams who were strongly impacted. In short, the Pacific League teams understand the benefit of cooperating; you’re welcome to criticize the Central League teams in this regard all you like.
11/01/2012 at 8:25 am Permalink
I can’t quite understand why they don’t use transfer fees as in international soccer. Player A has a value, his club wants to “sell” him. Teams A, B, C and D want to get that player. The one with the highest bid gets the player and negotiates a contract. By doing it that way the player can eliminate the teams from his list he doesn’t want to play for.
To be honest, I never quite understood this posting thing with disclosed bids.
I got no idea how it might work, but hey, my favourite soccer team Borussia Dortmund signed a player for a transfer fee of €17.1m (~$21m, ï¿¥1.7bn). And that’s not even the highest fee ever paid…
11/01/2012 at 9:29 am Permalink
simon,
I’m guessing you found “socialistic” in American leagues from restrictions such as the salary-cap or some weird luxury tax system? Just wondering.
Back to getting rid of posting system, because I rather see baseball reinstates a free agent market with simple and mutual understanding between NPB and MLB… I understand that it’s difficult to make a player from the American system to give up what he had for a completely different, foreign (and distance faraway from home) culture. But incentives help.
I didn’t want to get into details, so we can stay open minded and think of a sound system. But if I may, then For Example: the “player compensation” must only apply to players not only under the 40-man roster, but the player who is entering his 7th year in pro-ball. And the NPB club compensated must pay the player the minimum of MLB salary. If a multi-year contract is dealt (renegotiated as soon as the compensation was dealt), then the player MUST waive his right to such minimum, but he must be paid at least of 200% his minor league contract per year.
The minor league player will better embrace such idea. After all, he was under team control, wasted 6 years without seeing a good chance for a call up, and the money will be good. Why not?
I also believe this new alternative of “player compensation” will prompt NPB to upgrade their scouting and analysis department(s). They can now think ahead and dip into the bigger pool of MLB resources (minor league), without the cost of developing their own player in a 3-gun.
Since some ballclubs, such as Lotter Marines, never liked that idea of expanding the minor league. Remember how Bobby Valentine, while a manager for the Marines, wrote on his blog and in press release the necessity of expanding the DEPTH of the minor league to a 3-gun and beyond, not just stuck with a 2-gun? Lotte then worked with the Yomiuri Giants for a year to send ikusei players to indie league in Shikoku? Even sponsored the team? But Lotte folded that idea half-way that season? Left Yomiuri completing that project alone?
Shame, but that’s the reality of owner mentality. I’m sure Westbay has more in-depth thoughts on this.
Sorry for the digression. What I’m saying here is that: The posting system is not good for baseball. Players don’t like it. MLB doesn’t like it. Only greedy NPB owners stayed pat and liked it. It’s not stimulating NPB to improve.
A new “bridge” system, such as the one I proposed, will not only push NPB forward, but baseball in general.
11/01/2012 at 11:18 am Permalink
I can’t quite understand why they don’t use transfer fees as in international soccer. Player A has a value, his club wants to “sell†him. Teams A, B, C and D want to get that player. The one with the highest bid gets the player and negotiates a contract. By doing it that way the player can eliminate the teams from his list he doesn’t want to play for.
To be honest, I never quite understood this posting thing with disclosed bids.
I think it’s effectively a deterrent that allows NPB teams to retain their talent.
11/01/2012 at 12:02 pm Permalink
Case in point, 2 WBC titles…
12/01/2012 at 7:21 am Permalink
– I can’t quite understand why they don’t use transfer fees as in international soccer. Player A has a value, his club wants to “sell†him. Teams A, B, C and D want to get that player. The one with the highest bid gets the player and negotiates a contract. By doing it that way the player can eliminate the teams from his list he doesn’t want to play for.
To be honest, I never quite understood this posting thing with disclosed bids.
Please see the Irabu Incident.
In short, Hideki Irabu wanted to be traded to the Major Leagues. Lotte said “No.” Irabu whined louder and threatened to sit out a year. Lotte said, “OK. We’ve made a deal to send you to San Diego for one of their players.” (That’s the part that sounds a lot like what many are proposing.) Irabu said, “No, I won’t go anywhere but to the New York Yankees.” Eventually an agreement was worked out where Irabu could go to the Yankees, both Lotte and San Diego looked like stooges, and to prevent this from ever happening again, the Posting System was introduced.
The Posting System was not introduced to satisfy “greedy NPB owners.” Boston’s Matsuzaka bid was an unforeseen apparition. The purpose was to allow the ball clubs to retain some control of the situation, but to also alleviate them of the responsibility of determining where the player would be traded to. With the sealed bid, they have no control, so 仕方ãŒãªã„ (it can’t be helped) with regards to where the player will be traded to. If the player doesn’t like the winning bid, he stays. If the ball club doesn’t like the offer, he stays. No amount of whining can change that.
Note, I’m note making a judgement call on whether the system is “good” or not. I’m stating what the origin of it is and what the problem was that it solved. Any changes to the system are going to have to take this incident into account and show how the new system can prevent it from happening again. I don’t see any suggestions that address this issue.
12/01/2012 at 10:25 am Permalink
I might have described the soccer way a bit wrong. In soccer, the player has the power (which isn’t a good thing either, I know). There are players in soccer who behave just like Irabu did. But usually, both sides get their share. The club losing the player gets a lot of money (they now use fixed sums for the fee in the contracts, e.g. player is free to leave if another club pays €x). I just think by allowing a player and/or a club to negotiate with all teams things would be a bit clearer for everybody.
Let’s play this through with Darvish. He tells MLB clubs he wants to go, every club interested offers him a contract. Meanwhile the Fighters will say they will let him go for $75m. So clubs think this over. They start talking to both the player and the Fighters. Eventually the price will come down, but the Fighters will still get a lot of money.
Aaaah, it’s hard to describe…. I’m sorry. Maybe this helps: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_%28association_football%29"Wikipedia
12/01/2012 at 11:29 am Permalink
Hi, Michael,
>>The Posting System … purpose was to allow the ball clubs to retain some control of the situation, but to also alleviate them of the responsibility of determining where the player would be traded to.
>>I’m stating what the origin of it is and what the problem was that it solved. Any changes to the system are going to have to take this incident into account and show how the new system can prevent it from happening again. I don’t see any suggestions that address this issue.
***
Excuse me to throw in a barbaric roar. What’s the issue here? To address what? That the player is ripped away from his right to choose a Major League ballpark before his free agency comes? I say no, that’s hardly an issue. If it ever was, NPB simply needs to shorten the FA years. Well, they won’t. Who would? It took more than 20 years since Curt Flood for MLB to get to 6 years of FA years.
I already addressed such “issue.” First of all, the player must pass a “waiver claim” by NPB clubs if released. They already got a system like that. NPB simply needs to accept that if no NPB club claimed the guy, he’s free to go and talk to MLB clubs without future penalties. (Like what NPB owners wanted with the “Tazawa Rule.”)
Trading a player to a MLB club is not an issue. Why? He’s under the TOTAL TEAM CONTROL. See how this works?
Before FA: you do as the ballclub says.
Since FA: Good luck with your agent.
The posting system is unnecessary. Players don’t like it, MLB doesn’t like it. Lotte was infamous for being cheap. Fans called the pre-Setoyama/Valentine club the “Dark Age,” so I guess that’s partly why Irabu was unhappy. We have 2 out of 3 sides on stake not happy with this issue. How is that merely “whining”?
12/01/2012 at 11:39 am Permalink
To expound a bit, the “waiver claim” could be perfected as a replacement of the posting system.
We can go by what MLB got, the parent club may place that player on waiver but retract (reclaim) the player once. That way, all other NPB clubs could be notified first that the player is interested at talking to the MLB club.
Of course, if the player stayed in Japan, the idea would be his fans would stay with him and money comes back to NPB. But he goes abroad, so was the value that the player might possess. So the MLB club needs to pay a price for this player. We can go back to the “compensation” that I suggested earlier above, the player was considered FA if not claimed. MLB club that signed him must compensate either monetarily or a player.
13/01/2012 at 7:45 am Permalink
Billy D-san, please throw in a good barbaric roar. I like a good, loud debate, and you clearly know how to argue on point. Your reasoning were much better than my rant.
What was the issue again? Oh, yeah. Jan-san didn’t understand how the Posting System came to be. I think that the history lesson of how it got its start was what I wanted to say. Then I threw that issue out there as to why any system to take its place will have to first cure the Irabu Issue.
I don’t disagree with your proposal of a waiver system and compensation for lost players. I believe that, after reflection, my issue is that I don’t think that the Japanese owners will ever go for it. I seem to recall Daiei (predecessor to SoftBank) releasing players to give them the freedom to go to the Majors on the strict condition that they not use their release to join another domestic team. The waiver system that you describe gives other domestic teams first dibs on waived players.
Issues with the waiver system have already cropped up for Japanese teams trying to purchase North American players. Chunichi tried to get someone a few years back, but Boston stepped in and claimed the guy off of waivers, making everyone in the deal look foolish. Perhaps that incident has made me wary of the waiver system for dealing international players.
13/01/2012 at 9:46 am Permalink
Westbay-san, no offense taken, but I know the story of the posting system with Nomo and Irabu and so on ;o)
It’s just from a european perspective the way to “deal” players in professional sports is a completely different approach. That’s why I thought it might benefit both sides of the Pacific ocean.
A recent example (don’t mind the names if you’re not into soccer): Manchester City wants to get rid off Carlos Tevez. His agent was negotiating with AC Milan. This would have sent Pato to Paris St. Germain. All these moves include a transfer fee. Tevez would have cost Milan €25m-28m, Pato would have netted them ~€35m. (are you still with me?). It would have been a nice deal for everyone involved.
The whole deal fell through because Pato didn’t want to leave Milan. There are no “no-trade” clauses in soccer, but the player can veto any deal, because he has to negotiate a new deal with his new club (no guaranteed contracts).
I still believe it would be better if the player could talk to all MLB clubs. That way his club in NPB would also get a lot of money and the player would end up with his preferred club.
But hey, I’m totally with you that the current system needs to be changed.